John Waters has just released “”A Dirty Shame””, a “”sex education film”” starring Tracey Ullman, Johnny Knoxville and Selma Blair. He talks to us about the NC-17 rating, his fans, his art, what it means to be a sex education film and remaking cinema.
Waters may be more famous for what his movies represent than the plotlines. His movies have a uniform style (originating in drag queens gone wrong), and are all set in blue-collar Baltimore. Everyone has heard of “”Pink Flamingos”” and the famous eating scene, but very few people can tell you the name of the character doing the eating. What do you expect from a man who has been given the nickname “”the Prince of Puke”” and whose autobiography is title “”Shock Value””? John Waters has a strangely solemn air about him, until he starts talking, and then anything could happen (and does – this interview has a lot of sexual language). He’s an animated talker, waving his hands, toying with a hole in his purple striped socks, stopping to emphasizing words for maximum effect. EMSo, why NC-17?JWWell, it wasn’t my idea. My contract said that it was an R-rated movie, and I think it was an R-rated movie. I think in another administration it wouldn’t be. I think three years ago it would have been an R-rated movie. Either way, my fans love it! It’s like a rallying cry! Certainly, we haven’t lost any theaters from it.When I got the NC-17, luckily New Line was OK because it could have been a real nightmare for me to cut. They ask you to cut it if you can. But there are too many strokes to this movie, so the only way to cut it is to make a total Neuter version of the movie.[We tried to appeal] and they told me that it was 100% overruled. They were nice – they said “”We thought it was funny!””. But they said, “”It was our job to say what would most parents do.”” Well, if you put every parent in the room, they’d be horrified, and we’d never have gotten it out anyway. So to me, most parents wouldn’t take their kids, but some parents would take their kids – that’s what an R rating is. So, I’m not trying to get on my high horse about it, I’m even not trying to make that the focus of the campaign, because I’ve had people come in and say “”Oh, they’re not all nude.”” That’s what NC-17 kinds of reads to me. When “”Pink Flamingos”” and “”Female Trouble”” were released, they were both NC-17. They knew we were going to accept the NC-17, so they just put “”For Pervasive Sexual Content””, which was them being nice, instead of saying “”For…Felching.”” They came out when X hyped – the poster had a giant X! So, ratings trends come and go. There’s no G rating anymore, either. That’s the only rating I’ve never had.EMI think it’s amazing how wide your fan base is. My mom is a huge fan – she says to say hi!JWThat’s amazing, since people’s parents used to REALLY hate me. Nowadays, a lot of people I know tell me that their parents turned them on to my movies. My parents hated “”Pink Flamingos”” as much as they did when it came out! They like “”Hairspray the Musical”” a lot more than “”A Dirty Shame””, I’ll tell you that! They know everybody now (at premiers), and they’re good sports about it. My mother liked “”Hairspray”” more because it wasn’t threatening. My parents were pretty conservative – they’ve gotten less because of me. During the premier, I tell them, “”You don’t have to come!”” , and they say “”But we want to come.”” They’ve been coming to the premiers forever. Actually, I want my parents to stop upstaging me. The Baltimore Sun, The Washington Post, whoever attends watches them because they’re very conservative. My mother says “”What I hate is that in every rude part everyone turns around to see my reaction because they know I’m your mother!””EMYou’ve talked about how that “”A Dirty Shame”” is a sex education firm..JWIt is a sex education film!EMDo you think we need sex education films?JWSafe sex? Yes – there’s nothing else left. First there’s AIDS, now Hepatitis C. Every day they’re coming up with more of them! And now in the gay community, syphillis is back. It used to be safe to get blown – now its not! Now that’s not even safe anymore!And kids are going to experiment, because they should. It’s part of being young to be experiment! If all these acts are not against women, are safe, can’t get pregnant, and to me they’re funny. So, if we can laugh and have safe sex, although laughter is the enemy of serious sex, I guess.Unless you’re a tickle top. And I’ve seen tickle porn, I really don’t get that. But there is a whole genre; you’re a tickle top or a bottom, and the point is to tie people up and tickle them til they have an orgasm. But they’re serious about it, that’s the thing.[pagebreak]EMThat does get to the next point – I’m curious how you chose which fetishes to feature in the movie. Fetishes have gotten a little mainstream – even CSI had a whole episode about furries. JWI did read that article in Vanity Fair, and I never really believed it was true. I think all those people came along after the article. But that would get too hot for me. .. I had to pick ones that I thought were funny and you could describe quickly. And talk about, because you don’t see them doing it a lot of the time. Well, some of them you do, like sploshing, but that doesn’t need foreplay for anything. And that’s why hookers that specialize in fetishes never get arrested. Even though the vice squad comes in, they can charge money for someone to throw food at them.But…[back to the sex education] I completely believe in sex education! If we could talk about it..when the Stickles have the mother-daughter conversation: “”I’m a cunnilingus bottom”” – I don’t think that’s the conversation anyone would be having, but at the same time, people do.One of the things that I didn’t realize at the time, is that there are billboards all over Baltimore from the mayor’s office that say “”Talk to your children about sex. Somebody else is.”” And that’s from our government, right? Not that we can get that in schools. That’s the Bush administration – abstinence only education in public schools. That’s the Neuter movement.There are Neuter movements – there’s the Purity movement. You take a pledge of purity – that’s another extreme fetish, I think. That’s ok,if that’s what you want, you do it. But just don’t think that everybody else has to feel about it the way that you do. That’s true with religion, politics.EMSo, you have a repuatation as a graphic filmmaker – you went so far as to have sex with a chicken…JWBut we ate the chicken.EMNonetheless. When Ray-Ray meets Sylvia for the first time, and services her, she’s undergone a complete sexual awakening. Yet, when there’s a closeup on Ray-Ray’s face, it’s completely dry. Why did you make that choice?JWI think to do that…there’s no blood when she hits her head, there’s no bruises.. it’s a comedy. It touches on that in fingering ground beef, but when you’re trying to do a comedy in the first 10 minutes when Johnny Knoxville performs cunnilingus on Tracey Ulmman in the front seat of a car in broad daylight..it was the second day we shot it. Maybe it wouldn’t have been funny. And maybe I wouldn’t have done that to Tracey. It would have humiliated the actors in a way. I also thought about the real-life aspect – it takes about three seconds, which wouldn’t have been enough time. But it’s a fair question.EMOne of things that your views may not know about you is your art career – you had a show at the Whitney last year, and a great book “”Director’s Cut””. How has your photography informed your filmmaking?JWI did make a movie about the art world called “”Pecker.”” But they’re mostly in a different place. The museum show was great; it broke the records for attendance. It’s touring for four years. It’s a whole other part of my life, I collect contemporary art. In some ways it’s the same – I try to get people to laugh, and I use the movie business – but I think the contemporary art world is a differet place. You have to keep that work in that place for it to work. I don’t let it cross over, and I don’t think it should cross over.[pagebreak]EWThere’s a trend in remaking films. If you could remake any film, which one would you do?JWI’m against the idea! I’d say remake the bad ones; they’re the ones that need remaking.EMBut if you HAD to choose one…JWMaybe…Peyton Place.EMPeyton Place! Would you do it straight, or do it in drag?JWI would make it overstylized and go crazy with melodrama and the dirtiness of it. I love Grace Metalious. Peyton Place is in New Hampshire, where they still hate her. I have a friend who has a piece of the wallpaper over her desk where she wrote “”Return to Peyton Place.””